"The Provincial Government will now be aware of validated public opinion re LRT as they approach a difficult election. Council should now consider presenting options that benefit all area ridings based on the Premier's commitment to Hamilton transit funding. The Rapid Ready Document which calls for transit ridership growth as a precursor to future LRT. The Province made it clear that Regional Express Rail is now driving transit planning which could help accelerate half hour all day GO Train Service from Stoney Creek to the GTA, especially in view of the recent Federal announcement of $196 million in funding for the Burlington-Stoney Creek corridor."
Eisenberger and Murray approached Premier Wynne on the premise that Light Rail was the preference of the majority of Hamiltonian's, and that implementing the technology would be an exercise in inclusion and universal support.
ReplyDeleteMs.Wynne took them at their word, called our collective bluff, and stepped up to the plate with the funding few believed could possibly materialize.
"Go make it happens boys...."
And here we are. I think Fred owes Kathy a sincere apology for the chaos he has created, yet doubt one is forthcoming.
Maybe it is time for the Premier to address the matter specifically and unequivocally? Make sure "Uncle Ted" is sitting close at hand.
I appreciate Mr. Bratina's perspective, it is encouraging to know there are Liberal voices in the area who remain committed to serving the constituents they represent.
A wise voice once said:
ReplyDelete"Policy by polling is a very slippery slope and resorting to it to inform the LRT debate is more a reflection of desperation than anything else"
Jim Taylor
this poll was not conducted "to inform the LRT debate" but to reflect it. Do not like what you see?
DeleteYes, I did.
DeleteJim Taylor
How does Hamilton's daily GO ridership stage up against daily B-Line ridership? How does the operating cost of LRT stack up against heavy rail? And which of the two needed to build ridership in order to rationalize a $1B capital investment?
ReplyDeleteBTW, since the province is putting $1B into Hamilton transit, I assume that the federal government is doing likewise?
~ Wren
Someone once said ignore the people at your own peril. This is the second major project Mayor Fred has ignored the people so who is the problem
ReplyDeleteGO ridership between Hamilton and Toronto is 60,000 per day. I believe this is about double the B-Line daily usage. The Federal Government just announced a $36 million dollar contribution to HSR infrastructure.
ReplyDeleteA generous assessment, but I left the door open.
DeleteSo, respectfully: What quantity of that 60,000 daily GO ridership between Hamilton and Toronto travels by bus? What portion by rail? How many riders would you find on average aboard outbound trains between Hamilton's two train stations and Aldershot? And how does the average daily rail passenger count aboard trains travelling between Hamilton and Aldershot (and onward from there) compare to B-Line daily usage?
~ Wren
When GO train frequency approaches schedule levels provided by the current bus operations Metrolinx has the ridership projections. Since LRT would under the plan reduce service levels (e.g. removal of 15 HSR stops between Queenston Circle and Wellington)it is unlikely ridership would improve. So I would guess GO train and bus frequency at half hour service levels would move the 60,000 daily trips to well over 100,000, as opposed to the 30,000 on B-line with fewer LRT stops. The investments in GO Lakeshore West have been well-planned going back at least ten years when I sat on the GO Board. Hamilton LRT was not presented as a transit solution so shouldn't be confused with transit planning. It was supposed to be paid for by development charges against properties along the route, fuel levies, and other funding tools which nobody was willing to support. The sale of Hydro was their replacement.
DeleteMaybe I am just ignorant, but I am wondering the following:
DeleteLRT, or BRT or HSR, is meant to transport people within the city. Go transfers people to another city. So why are we looking at these together and why would we want to encourage the brain drain that already happens with people leaving Hamilton for T.O.?
I am sking honestly. I don't know
From the sidelines
Hi Bob, could you please point me to your source for 60,000 GO trips between Hamilton and Toronto per day. I had not seen that number before. Thanks!
DeleteAgain, MP Bratina, you're dodging the question.
DeleteI asked a specific question about your quote: "GO ridership between Hamilton and Toronto is 60,000 per day. I believe this is about double the B-Line daily usage."
You are making a reference to the current ridership capacities of two separate modes/services. And that — the here and now, not some colourful hypothetical like two-way, all-day service by 2013. Our existing reality is what I'm asking about.
Absent evidence to the contrary, Hamilton's GO Train ridership is low. West Harbour's daily ridership (200 per day, five days a week) would fill two articulated buses with room to spare. The Hamilton GO Centre is better but still low: Three times as many use Burlington GO stations, because rail travel between Hamilton and Aldershot is pokey compared to driving, and if you're already driving to a GO Station minutes from the highway, it's as easy to keep going as it is to stop.
This challenge was identified by Metrolinx four years ago, when the agency forecast daily ridership in 2031 for Hamilton's three rail stations.
Confederation: 150 riders daily
James St. N.: 450 riders daily
Hamilton TH+B: 300 riders daily
900 riders a day, 15 years from now.
That's eight 60-foot buses in rush hour.
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/projectevaluation/studies/GO_Transit_Rail_Parking_and_Station_Access_Plan_EN.pdf
These numbers suggest that fewer than 1,000 passengers travel between Hamilton and Aldershot by GO Train daily. And IIRC, heavy rail service is expanded to meet passenger demand, not on speculation.
~ Wren
"When GO train frequency approaches schedule levels provided by the current bus operations Metrolinx has the ridership projections."
DeleteAre you suggesting that GO would cancel bus service on order to rationalize train service? Because a move like that would vastly reduce the convenience of the service. Also, can anyone tell me what GO fares will be in 2024?
Campaigner
2018-12-08
Delete"Long given the cold shoulder for commuter rail service, Hamilton residents will have Toronto-bound GO trains to hop on every 15 minutes in rush hour and every 30 minutes the rest of the day as early as 2013.… Ward 2 Councillor Bob Bratina, who sits on the GO Transit board of directors, says multiple variables, such as a teetering economy that could see fewer commuters heading to work, make specific timelines difficult to nail down. "It may be a little soon, it's hard to say, but I would say that's a good working date," he said of the 2013 timeline."
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2089998-more-trains-in-go-plan/
~ Wren
Good question from the previous post (from the sidelines). Personally, I don't have any faith in LRT taking off or doing well under our city. It has been decades and I am still waiting for HSR in the east.
ReplyDeleteSince amalgamation, we have become a "mircowave" city. We focus all our heat to the core and allow the outsides to dry out and get burned. For those that need a more clear explanation - the city focuses all our money and investments in the core of Hamilton, where areas such as Dundas, Mount Hope, Stoney Creek etc... are contributing via taxes, and get nothing (no heat).
If we are going to have referandum, I would like to see one to de-amalgamate.
Donna
"From their inception, regional governments such as Hamilton-Wentworth were highly controversial and unpopular. For instance, as former Regional Chairman Terry Cooke points out, the two-tier system of Hamilton-Wentworth confused lines of political accountability, or in other words, who was responsible for what. Such a system also allowed for the development of territorial or parochial politics that hindered the objectives of the region's overall development. As Sancton points out: "The Hamilton-Wentworth system was dysfunctional from the very beginning. The main problem was that the City of Hamilton, because of its high proportion of the regional population, always had more than half the seats on regional council. In the early years of Hamilton-Wentworth, suburban members would sometimes thwart the city by walking out, thereby preventing a quorum."
DeleteThe creation of Hamilton-Wentworth demonstrated the considerable problems of merging city and countryside. If the new central-city region was relatively strong, as was the case in the regional municipality of Hamilton-Wentworth, outlying areas felt that effective regional government would inevitably serve only that city's interest."
https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/bitstream/11375/11396/1/fulltext.pdf
Noted
"If we are going to have referandum, I would like to see one to de-amalgamate."
Deletehttp://www.pressreader.com/canada/the-hamilton-spectator/20140203/281797101876934
Noted
Interesting that when several hundred show up for a rally in support of the project, advocates use words like "massive" to describe the turnout.
ReplyDeleteYet when a very similar number of millennials are contacted, polled, and the results demonstrate a majority still in opposition, the same advocates describe the number as "puny" and completely at odds with the demographic they represent.
Contradictory? Hypocritical? Desperate?
Jim,
DeleteAt the height of participation there were approximately 500 people at the rally. I do not believe that they were all millennials or that anyone counted the demographics. Pretending they were all millennials is disingenuous at best. However, how many anti-LRT rallies have there been? What's the turnout like?
~Mountain Man
"several hundred show up for a rally in support of the project…Yet when a very similar number of millennials are contacted, polled"
DeleteCBC Hamilton: "Nine councillors hired Forum Research to survey 3,324 Hamiltonians from March 30 to April 4. Of those, 131 were aged 18 to 34 and 1,391 were 65 and up."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/lrt-poll-youth-1.4074190
18-34: 131 respondents
55+: 2,283 respondents
17.4 senior citizens were polled for every millennial.
Bresaola
443 under the age of 44 were polled. Your point?
DeleteThis is the only demographic where you can claim "victory" yet want the results categorized as "unfair" Such strategy is unparalleled, yet symptomatic of the logic employed by advocates.
Hey Mountain Man, how you making out with those "contingency plans" you were rummaging around for...been awhile now.
Point 1: 131 is not "several hundred"
DeletePoint 2: When planning the future, maybe a good idea to ask those who have evolved beyond land lines. ;)
Bresaola
yet 443 is, and remarkably close to the numbers purported to be in attendance at the rally.
DeleteWhen wishing to have your voice heard, perhaps making yourself easily accessible is the key.
You said "a very similar number of millennials" in reference to the "several hundred show up for a rally in support of the project."
DeleteWhat you presumably meant was "a very similar number of Gen X/Y/Zers."
Bresaola
Millenials:
Delete"there are no precise cohorts for when this starts or ends;"
Unless of course your parents named you "Bresaola" and you have an ill defined point to make.
Is it "massive" or "puny"? Your choice.
Hope OHIP covers your splenectomy ;)
Deletehttp://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-sa/98-311-x/98-311-x2011003_2-eng.cfm
Bresaola
So jim graham has been preaching far and wide that in his opinion, because the majority of "millenials" voted against LRT, this has meaning or relevance to the issue of Hamilton LRT. Now we find out according to jim, "millenials" means anything or everything he says it does because he cut and pasted:
Delete"Millenials:
"there are no precise cohorts for when this starts or ends;""
Handy "logic".
Allan Graham
I know you 2 amateur demographers would prefer if I allowed you alone to frame the parameters for any discussion. Have we met?
DeleteThe reaction to the poll is predictable. the losing side always attacks the poll. Still makes them the losers though. LRT lost. Live with it and move on.
ReplyDeleteThe Captain
Mr.Bratina,
ReplyDeleteSlightly off topic, and please forgive me if I am placing you in a difficult position, but I am wondering if you would have any comment/insight into the apparent divergence between McMeekin "it is LRT- or bye bye to a billion" and Wynne "it is to build transit, you decide" which she reconfirmed earlier today.
Regards
Sept 2011
ReplyDeleteWe already knew expanded GO service was on the province’s menu. What was new from the weekend’s photo-op is that one of the two new stations/platforms (on James Street near LIUNA Station) will be ready for the 2015 Pan Am Games, and the second will be located at Confederation Park.
However, there are a number of questions we don’t have answers for yet, and some should cause Hamilton taxpayers considerable concern. The biggest one is, who pays? The province typically pays operating expenses for GO Transit. But what about any capital expenses incurred through the service expansion. Who pays for the two platforms/stations? Who pays for any traffic rerouting made necessary by the expansion? Who pays for movement or changes to rail tracks? Who pays for the engines and cars made necessary to supply expanded service? Typically, these are paid by the municipalities benefiting from expanded GO service. Does that mean Hamilton is going to be on the hook? If so, for how much? And how does Hamilton city hall plan to pay for those capital expenses? Will local taxes increase to pay for expanded GO service? What does city council say about all this, since the matter hasn’t been discussed recently?
Also, is the expanded service a permanent feature, or intended to benefit during the Pan Am Games? Curious taxpayers, their advocates and concerned city councillors need to be asking those questions.
Equally significant is what the premier said about LRT for Hamilton on the weekend. A Spectator reporter reminded McGuinty that he has expressed support for two Hamilton LRT lines, first in 2007 and more definitively in 2009. The premier said he’s now just prepared the “discuss” LRT if the city wants to. McGuinty is being slippery here. Council has already formally supported the pursuit of LRT, notwithstanding the mayor’s confusing and contradictory ramblings on the subject. There should be no question that council, and for that matter most significant players in the city, support fully investigating LRT. Council should reaffirm that at the upcoming LRT vote planned for next month, sending a clear message to Queen’s Park going forward. And we need answers on the real cost of GO service expansion.
http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/2221302-good-go-news-but-what-s-the-cost-/
"Given the Mayor's unease with the potential unknown cost components of LRT, would he not harbour the same type of concerns with All Day Go, particularly because many of the costs that Howard identifies, are expected? And particularly because All Day Go seems more immediate and will impact Hamiltonians sooner?"
http://www.thehamiltonian.net/2011/09/whats-going-rate.html
Allora
"The Province made it clear that Regional Express Rail is now driving transit planning which could help accelerate half hour all day GO Train Service from Stoney Creek to the GTA"
ReplyDeleteJune 28, 2016
"Ontario is planning to bring new weekday GO rail service between the future Confederation GO Station in Hamilton and the Niagara Region starting in 2021, with service to Niagara Falls by 2023."
https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2016/06/new-weekday-go-rail-service-planned-between-hamilton-and-the-niagara-region.html
"Metrolinx expects 25,000 passenger trips when seasonal GO train service arrives in Niagara for the ninth consecutive year next month."
http://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/2017/04/24/25k-riders-expected-for-seasonal-go-rail-service
"The West Harbour GO Station opened in the summer of 2015 for the Pan Am Games. The station initially opened in a partially finished position with much of the landscaping unfinished, some of the interiors not quite finished, and the parking facilities still under construction. Since then the station has been completed and is serviced by morning and peak trains on weekdays. But one train that will once again not be making a stop at the station is the weekend Niagara GO train."
http://www.hamiltontransit.ca/niagara-go-trains-to-skip-hamilton-again-in-2017/
http://www.gotransit.com/Public/en/travelling/seasonal.aspx
So impressive is Hamilton's latent GO Train ridership that seasonal rail to Niagara continues to bypass the city.
Allora